Alright, so I took the most passive line possible.

Initial raiser is 21/3. When he raises from early position, he has Aces+. There is NO doubt about that in my mind. I feel that my hand + my ability to outplay villain make this a call. Yes, I know he's well ahead pre. There are some loose players after me who WILL generously and liberally call down w one-way 2nd and 3rd nuts. ***Side note...I just NOW had one of them call off all his money w 2567 on an AK3 flop. They're SO bad.***

Anyway, here's the action.


:: HOLD'EM MANAGER :: Online Poker Tracking and Analysis Software
Hi-Lo Omaha $4(BB) Absolute Game#1672908667

EXCLUSIVEM ($382)
LUCKYWOO ($200)
1SEXYDANCER ($288)
_SLEESTACK ($486)
GONUX ($800)
CCDC_VEGAS ($1,381)
BBBRENT ($349)
RAINARUBY ($760)
NE14DONKEY ($349)

EXCLUSIVEM posts (SB) $2
LUCKYWOO posts (BB) $4

Dealt to GONUX 9s As 6d 2h
fold,
_SLEESTACK raises to $14
GONUX calls $14
fold,
BBBRENT calls $14
fold,
NE14DONKEY calls $14
fold, fold,
FLOP ($62) 4c Ts Ks
_SLEESTACK checks
GONUX checks
BBBRENT checks
NE14DONKEY checks

This is a great flop for me vs initial raiser for obvious reasons. However, it often hits the overcallers ranges pretty hard so I check. Is bet/fold or bet/call better?


TURN ($62) 4c Ts Ks Ah
_SLEESTACK bets $36
GONUX calls $36
BBBRENT calls $36
NE14DONKEY folds

This is a bad turn for me vs both the initial raiser AND the overcallers...again for obv reasons. I have the nfd, top pr which I am sure is no good, and a lo draw that may be good...or may be good if a 3 or 5 pop off. When Slee bets out, he's not folding Ever I don't think unless there are 2 raises behind him and he has no lo draw...which I think is impossible. Anyway, if it's raised behind me, I probably have to fold...but the turndonk is so small, I Have to call?

RIVER ($170) 4c Ts Ks Ah 3h
_SLEESTACK checks
GONUX checks
BBBRENT checks
GONUX shows 9s As 6d 2h
(Pre 33%, Flop 40.2%, Turn 16.7%)

BBBRENT shows 2d Qh 3c Qd
(Pre 23%, Flop 7.4%, Turn 25.0%)

_SLEESTACK shows 3s Ad Ac 4s
(Pre 44%, Flop 52.5%, Turn 58.3%)

GONUX wins $83.50
_SLEESTACK wins $83.50


So does anybody think I missed any bets, shoulda folded, etc etc.


NOTE: PLEASE get the hand replayer to work with HEM. I really don't like having to post villain's names. THX!

__________________
These are the thoughts of a monkey

I'm going to reply here just to test myself. I have no experience playing PLO8. Only replying from basic principles. So consider my reply as just an experiment.

Preflop is too loose esp since others realize it as well, and you have bad position.

flop is where your bad relative position takes its toll. I dont mind a c/evaluate here.

I suppose turn has to be called, and the chances of a raise behind you are slim. I cannot say that with any conviction without any experience of the game.

In summary not a major victory or a loss here. You got decent odds to continue, but couldnt take control of the hand because of a loose preflop call.

Man i love this game . I actually disagree with uphigh on a couple points here: I'm never ever folding this hand pre against a villain whose range is that tight when he raises in early position; you are going to be able to take lots of pots from him postflop and there are also plenty of money flops you can hit where he'll put in his stack in fairly bad shape. Clearly having the 9 is a detriment but the a26 combination is especially powerful in deepstack o8 because you can three-quarter players a lot of the time on the 345x board, which happens more frequently than you might think. The hand also plays pretty well multiway and given that villain likely has two aces and you have one, you are unlikely to get reraised by a player behind you.

I'm betting this flop pretty much all the time as well. Given that the initial raiser can't have the nut flush draw, he is almost certainly going to be check/folding this flop unless he gets stubborn with like aa2j or aaq2. He's pretty unlikely to have the AAQJ, which is one of the only hands I think he may choose to check/call the flop with. Plus, your bet looks very strong with the two players yet to act behind you. Again, given that you have the nut flush draw the only hands that are likely to raise behind you will be sets or maybe a random K10. It also helps that neither of the overcallers has a full 100bb, plus you have backdoor low/straight draws so if you are up against a set you will have plenty of equity with the nut flush draw and your backdoor draws. I bet the flop probably 70-75% pot and call if either of the two players behind repots.

As played, I think your turn play is exactly right. If it's raised behind you you're gonna have to reluctantly fold but I think you have way too much equity to just fold when initial raiser leads the turn. A riskier and laggier move (and incidentally, one i happen to like) on the turn would be to raise the turn. We can be fairly sure the initial raiser doesnt have the nuts here, and we can reasonably represent them I think. The really nice part about this play is that, assuming the two players behind us fold, the initial raiser will probably have to flatcall and then check/fold most rivers that don't pair the board. Obviously a Q or J will be a scare card, as will any wheel card. It'd be pretty sick if one of the two players behind you was bad enough to flatcall a bet/raise in front with like 23xx but I think they'd have to fold unless they're ubertards.

Thanks for the input guys.

I do think that preflop is 100% superstandard imo, esp this deep, and esp since I KNOW 2 of villain's cards. I obviously GREATLY prefer to have the button instead of this horrid position, but the hand is too strong. Combine that with POW's after me, and I am never folding this hand. Also, I saw the raise, saw I had the magic 6 and smiled. I've lost and won too much damn money kuz of that 6.

As for flop, the initial raiser is really the least of my concerns. He hates that flop and is checkfolding Most of the time, or checkcalling hoping he's being semibluffed + maybe backdoor will come. However, I was concerned with villains after me. They were both in the 55-70ish vpip range so a flop w KJ certainly figures to smash their ranges a LOT more than raiser's and mine. If I'm HU against the villain, I certainly become more aggressive. I usually do play this more aggressively as a default, but I've seen the guys after me get it in just SO light at times. I just really didn't want to bet flop and be raised and have to get it in as a dog w my flush draw and bd lo...having successfully gotten the initial raiser out of the pot. Yay. That said, I'm not sure I shouldn't have bet myself as if one of the villains has a lower fd, they WILL payoff at least one more bet.

Turn, the initial raiser isn't folding...that's my read. I've bluffed him in similar spots before and I kinda have him where I want him in that he will pay me off, but will let me draw for free too. It's really a good spot to be in. Anyway, ya, can't fold, can't raise. Must call oop and hope to not be in an unsexy sandwich.

River, I don't think I can EVER bluff here. Loose villain after me may well have the nuts, and I really don't know if AAA is ever folding. He certainly may have a lo as well and just doesn't believe I have to have a wheel. Maybe a good spot to pot/fold the river? I dunno. Default has to be check it down and expect to take my half.

__________________
These are the thoughts of a monkey

My views are pure speculation. So bear with me and i could learn a little.

how come you are so keen to call that hand with a 6? OTB I would definitely understand. how come you are keen to call it behind the initial raiser.

are you saying the magic 6 allows you to get 3/4th because ppl overplay the wheel?

Do you call hi-only hands. If not, what makes you believe you can steal many flops if at all?

I guess I'm up for some PLO8 HU small stake degeneracy if any of you care.

AFAIK that is exactly the reason.

it's hard to call it "overplay" as wheels are hard to make and so are nuts. Wheels are obv nut lo's and more than likely nut highs as well. villains have to bet said wheel 1st to act, and have to at LEAST call a pot-sized raise from behind them...and often get it allin if they aren't already. If they're oop, they have to bet the wheel and, again, have to at Least call the c/r.

__________________
These are the thoughts of a monkey

you stole my next post. So what am I missing. Seems like we are mining for specific boards, and yet seems you think we have a powerful hand.

pls pls pls enlighten me. I'm more curious than ever.

Sure! It's not that "it's such a powerful hand" or anything. But if you have A26 and villain has AA2, when there is 345 by the river, villain just IS going to be betting his hand strongly and you just Are going to get 3/4's of the pot. The best part of the hand imo is just that. There are few times in plo8b when you can absolutely mash the pot button with impunity and love your life. Having a wheel is one of those times. They're hard to make, and they scoop more hands than any other hand. You having A26 vs villains A2xx gets you 3/4's of HIS WHOLE STACK very often.

If villain only has nut lo and nothing near nut high, it's going to be much harder to get his whole stack than if he has the wheel...where 90% of the time you're monster.


Anyway, in this hand, A2, +6, +suited Ace, + knowing 2 of villain's cards, +deep = really good hand.

__________________
These are the thoughts of a monkey

Preflop is fine, the turn is cheap enough to call (even though you are basically drawing to half and not getting paid off when you catch scoops), but the river is a must bluff. If you are never bluffing this river, wow... Nobody has broadway and you are only getting raised on the river if the guy behind you has a wheel. The preflop raiser cannot have the wheel. So by betting this river you can get a light 26xx/56xx/27xx call from the guy behind you, fold out the pfr, and sometimes take 3/4 or a scoop. Or the guy behind you will fold and the pfr will flat call hoping to chop. But basically you're freerolling with a bet here because if you are raised you can fold, whereas if you check you are forced to call a value bet anyway.

It is a classic case of bet fold >>> check call.

In spots where the obvious wheel comes and people don't bet, you have to. Always always always.